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The insignificance of Scottish Football

October 11, 2009

So, who will win the SPL this year? Celtic or Rangers?

It’s this question that underlines the insignificance of the other teams in Scottish Football, and again raises the point that perhaps the two Glaswegian giants should be allowed to play in the Premier League.

Having watched last weekend’s Derby match, it’s plain to see that the standard of Scottish Football is very poor compared to the Premier League, often dubbed as the best League on the planet. Yet the hype surrounding the Scottish game seems unusually over-the-top.

It was an exciting game, but not for Footballing reasons. Both sides struggled to string more than 5 or 6 passes together, challenges were flying in left, right, and centre, and aerial balls were the flavour of the tie. Very little flowing Football was played.

On commentary it was said that the Celtic – Rangers Derby is bigger than most other Derby’s around the World, yet I’m struggling to put my finger on why that is. Glasgow is certainly a City divided into Green and Blue, so the supporters play a major role in bigging up the clash. But does that make a Football match a classic? Its supporters?

A few years ago it was said that Celtic and Rangers should be allowed to make the switch to play in the Premier League, allowing the other sides in the SPL the chance to compete for the title, for the first time in as long as I can remember. With the gulf in class between the Glasgow Clubs and the rest of the SPL sides, not only does it bring into question the standard of the teams down the bottom of the table, but it gives us reason to doubt their involvement in the League altogether. I mean, what are they competing for?

It’s very likely that 3rd position is held by Hearts come the end of the season, which means they qualify for the newly-named Europa League. This leaves 9 other teams effectively battling it out to survive the drop. If we took Celtic and Rangers out of the SPL, it would open up competition for the likes of Motherwell, Kilmarnock, etc. to actually aim for some silverware. There would be some motivation.

Not only is the SPL a seemingly pointless inevitability, but the two Scottish Cups are too. While Celtic have been on the receiving end of a few shocks in recent times, most notably to Inverness Caledonian Thistle, having one of Celtic or Rangers in the Final is seldom a rarity. Compare the CIS Insurance Cup to the FA Cup and there’s nowhere near as much romance, as many shock results, or as many classic moments, simply because the standard of the teams in the lower divisions is so bad that they don’t have a hope of challenging the bigger teams.

Last year it wasn’t much of a surprise to see East Stirling, of the Scottish 3rd Division, being beaten 7/8/9-0 every week. In fact it actually became a regularity by the end of the season. I guess the reason for the poor standard of Scottish Football is lack of interest, or at least not as much interest, as in other Leagues. It doesn’t get as much publicity around the World, certainly not as much as the Premier League, therefore less money is pumped into the game.

But I believe if you took The Bhoys and The Gers out of Scottish Football, it would give much more opportunities to the lesser sides to cause a few upsets and put themselves on the Footballing map. As for two Scottish sides playing in England, I don’t think anyone would have a problem with that so long as they’re being beaten, which I think would probably happen.

There have been a few occasions whereby English and Scottish sides have clashed in the Champions League, but that’s a different situation to playing in the PL every weekend against Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, etc. It’d be a tough change.

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52 Comments leave one →
  1. October 11, 2009 3:28 pm

    Great post.

    Rangers and Celtic should do anything that’s necessary to join the English Premier League. It will be good for the competition and it will be great for the development of these historic teams.

    I think the same thing should happen here in Spain. Benfica, Sporting and Porto should join La Liga, or we could build an Iberian Superliga instead, as it’s been considered before.

  2. maserati4200 permalink
    October 11, 2009 3:39 pm

    With their present squads and management, Celtic and Rangers would be lower-half mediocrity in the English PL, at best. They would both require major amounts of cash to improve their squads and management.

    Also, how would they enter the English leagues – PL, Championship, L1, L2… ? There would be uproar amongst the Championship clubs if either got a free pass to the EPL.

    The only way Celtic and Rangers will be able to compete in a better standard of league is if there is a European super-league. Oh – just realsied there is one…

    The Champions League, and both Glasgow clubs are crap at it.

    • Matthew permalink
      October 12, 2009 1:40 am

      maserati, the major amounts of cash you stipulate the old firm would need – that would be what all english clubs get every year.

      and as for champions league, the seeding is biased against the scottish teams, and we have fought way above our weight, with rangers doing well to get to final in the sister trophy, and celtic beating the likes of united milan, benfica and lyon, and did a credit to themselves against barcelona and juventus.

      if a scottish club gets to the second round, its a serious achievement. football is all about the money you have now, and the old firm are starved of any serious cash

  3. October 11, 2009 3:48 pm

    Firstly, the Scottish league is proper shi£e. Its a pointless competition in the grand scheme of football. It is not even as good as The Championship..Newcastle and Middlesbrough would do great every season up there!

    Secondly, I do not want Rangers or Celtic in the Prem. It would only really benefit them and not the English clubs. Celtic and Rangers would struggle week in and week out..mid table at best, or maybe Europa league placings if lucky.

    However the reason why it is billed as one of the worlds biggest derby’s is because the rivalry is based on religion…it has nothing to do with standard of football or city bragging rights. The Catholic/Protestant divide is still very prominent, and the feeling over Ireland still exists, but of course without the IRA bombing our shores anymore it is not shoved in the English faces anymore.

    • Matthew permalink
      October 12, 2009 1:35 am

      Rob, your post throws up so many misconceptions. yes, the scottish league is crap, but both celtic and rangers can’t help this. its an accident of birth.

      you seem to have very simply glossed over the underlying reasonings of both the rivalry of the derby and of the Irish question, a common occurance when commented on by people who know little to nothing of the situation here.

      yes, to the outside world they bopth seem to be based on religion. but really, no, that’s not the case. the Irish question has more to do with subjugation, basic civil rights and oppression of one section of society over another. the rivalry then itself in the od firm also stems from that. it just so happens that the two sides were so neatly seperated into two religious groupings.

      both Celtic and rangers are two massive clubs, DESPITE the ridiculous disparity in possible income in comparison to even the smallest premier league clubs.
      the clubs in england that got relegated last year still get double the money celtic or rangers would get for winning the SPL.

      this is, yes, due to the lack of interest. but there is no such lack of interest in celtic or rangers as seperate entities to the spl. Celtic are one of the single best supported clubs in the world. moreso even possibly than liverpool. we consistently pull in crowds upwards of 60,000 a week, more than liverpool, chelsea or citeh. rangers aren’t far behind, with upwards of 50,0o00.

      so, given the same income as is given to premier league clubs, the potential is there for both celtic and to a slightly lesser extent, rangers, to be come genuine contenders in the premier league, to the same degree as villa and everton at least.

      you forget that celtic have beaten United, A.C. Milan, lyon, benfica and more than held their own against the likes of barca and juve.
      yes, granted, we were crap against arsenal, but that was the start of a new reign, and a lot of the goals arsenal scored were pure luck.
      and Rangers got to uefa cup final only 2 years ago.

      you slate the reason for the rivalry in the derby, but its underlying sociological and historical reasons are mirrored all accross the world in derbies. real and atlectico – rich vs poor. boca and river similarly. derbies in turkey draw simliarities also.

      and as for your ‘without the IRA bombing our shores anymore it is not shoved in the English faces anymore.’ comment, lets not forget who is really responsible for the troubles Ireland has faced over 800 years. thats without getting onto the blame behind the troubles of most of africa and the asian sub continent.

      • October 12, 2009 1:35 pm

        nice bit of English bashing at the end there Matthew! I know exactly who is responsible for the trouble in Ireland et al.

        So if your point is true then i apologise to George…there is absolutely NO reason for the Celtic v Rangers match to be a big derby. Big fish very small pond syndrome. Nobody outside of Scotland gives two hoots about that match as it has NOTHING to do with history or religion. There..i retract what i said earlier.

        I wont be watching the SPL anytime soon so no matter. eh? Im sorry youre stuck in that crap league but thats just luck i guess.

  4. Rite$h permalink
    October 11, 2009 3:55 pm

    There was a time talks were being held by football associations of EPL and SPL to make the Scottish champions join the English Premier League, but then no more actions were taken. And now with all the investments in the premier league, it will be difficult for the scots to compete if they were to be given the right to play

  5. October 11, 2009 3:57 pm

    Great post! As much as I would like to see other SPL clubs battle it out for the title, the idea of Celtic and Rangers automatically getting in the EPL is out of the question, for the very same reason it is unfair to the Championship clubs, and the clubs who seemingly avoided relegation in 16th and 17th place (assuming the EPL remains as a 20 team league, so 5 teams are relegated – another ridiculous idea!)

    The only way I can see this working, is if they start from the bottom, i.e. Conference football. Not even League 2. Fans of both clubs would have to live with the fact that Notts County would be bigger than them, at least for a while.

    They can still play in Europe through their own CIS Cup, or Scottish FA Cup, which I believe is the arrangement for selected Welsh clubs.

  6. maserati4200 permalink
    October 11, 2009 3:57 pm

    The other question is…

    Why does does English football need them?


    We don’t – they need us more than them, so go whistle!

    • shallowgirl permalink
      October 12, 2009 7:08 am

      Here’s this strange link again. What does it mean??

  7. Pete G permalink
    October 12, 2009 1:41 am

    “It’s very likely that 3rd position is held by Hearts come the end of the season” – Completely disagree with this, Hibs and Dundee United are much better equipped to grab the 3rd spot this season.

    “Newcastle and Middlesbrough would do great every season up there!” – Ridiculous comment, if Newcastle and Middlesborough were to join the SPL they’d immediately fold as their income probably would no longer cover the wages of 5 first team players!

    I understand that Scottish Football is insignificant in the grand scheme of things but thats just common knowledge, comparing the SPL to the EPL isn’t going to win over anyone who disagrees with this. Its like comparing Sunsip Cola to Coca Cola, obviously one is going to be far better, and you just have to look at the money involved to see which one!

  8. October 12, 2009 3:21 am

    Do the Old Firm even want to play in England?
    My guess is no.
    I’d also guess the fans would not be pleased.

    We’ve heard it before: “The Scottish hate the English.”
    After a week in Edinburgh watching the Scots cheer on the Croatians in Euro Cup Qualifying a few years ago, I’d say it just might be true.

    • shallowgirl permalink
      October 12, 2009 7:15 am

      I agree. The assumption is that they would want to join the EPL but I seriously doubt it. At least Celtic or Rangers have a chance of winning some trophies where they are. I agree with the point of the article though – the other clubs in the SPL haven’t got a hope and the disparity between top and bottom of the league is huge so must be pretty demoralising. Perhaps another cup should be introduced into the SPL which excludes Celtic and Rangers, based on a ceiling on wage bill or something, to give the other clubs something to compete for.

  9. Neil permalink
    October 12, 2009 9:54 am

    Wow, this thread has been going on all weekend and I have been missing it!

    So, first things first. I am Scottish and I support a non big two SPL team.

    I would like to address Rob’s post. Rob, on this occasion you have let yourself down. Matthew covers most of the historical points correctly and in a well balanced manner but doesn’t take issue with one current blight on Scottish football which is the sectarianism still seen at Scottish Football games. Not only at the old firm but regularly at Hearts and Hibs games. This sectarianism is perpetrated by idiots who have about as much knowledge on the situation as Rob.

    Pete G, I agree with you that Hearts are far from guaranteed third. The problem is that out of the teams that will compete in the top half (Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hearts, Hibs) none have any siginficant quality in their ranks. Why is this? Well, every player of any quality that is developed at any of these teams is bought by either an old firm club or a wealthier English club. For example: Craig Gordon (Hearts – Sunderland £9m) and Steven Fletcher (Hibs – Burnley £3m) to name just two of many, many players.

    The root of this issue is in the very nature of the country in which the league exists. Scotland has a population roughly the same as Norway, Finland and Denmark. Is the Scottish league comparable to these? Probably so.

    The thing is that Scotland’s history and tradition of football is long and proud. Scotland was integral in the development of the passing game in the late 19th Century and from then on has continued to punch above it’s weight.

    Katie, not all Scots hate the English (in fact I’d argue that most don’t) but I can tell you for absolutely certain that Rangers and Celtic would LOVE to join the English league structure and would do so even if meant joining in League 2 and working their way up. That is the draw that the TV/sponsorship and global appeal money would bring to two already massive clubs.

    Finally, Would I like to see Celtic and Rangers leave the Scottish League and move South? Yes I would. I love football because it is competitive. Right now the SPL is not, and with the exception that Hearts came 2nd in 2005, no other team has come 1st or 2nd since the SPL was formed in 1998 and no other team has won the top flight (SPL or equivalent) since 1985.
    That’s not competition it’s a foregone conclusion.

    • October 12, 2009 1:27 pm

      well you’re entitled to your opinion Neil

      Mine is formulated from friends of mine who are fans of both Celtic and Rangers. I will hold my hands up and say i am no genius when it comes to knowledge on sectarianism. However, i would say that many vocal Scots do ‘buy in’ to the ‘hating the English’ ideal. Having witnessed you guys worship Diego Maradona for his hand of god, and saw how Rangers fans ripped Manchester City Centre to pieces just a year ago, the evidence is pretty damning. But there’s no love lost. We dont really want to see Scotland win anything anytime soon…

      Rangers and Celtic are Glasgow clubs. Glasgow in Scotland. Therefore they can stay in the SPL as we dont need them to enhance the brand of English football

      • Neil permalink
        October 12, 2009 2:32 pm

        Rob, no doubt many Scots do buy into this nonsensical English hating idea, I am not one of them. Your comments about Scottish hooliganism are fair, if taken into a much wider context of hooliganism throughout British and European football over the last three decades.

        Don’t confuse me with a supporter of the Old Firm, because I am not. I accept the quality of the Scottish leagues as outlined in my initial post. The SPL is somewhere between League one and League two in my opinion. Having become a regular at a League One ground this season, and having spent years at SPL grounds I can honestly say the standard is better in League One.

        That’s not the point though. Commercial pressure will be the defining factor that ends this discussion and I assure you that Rangers, Celtic and the English League system will benefit from the addition of these two clubs.

    • October 12, 2009 2:25 pm

      Of course not all Scots hate the English. Just enough that I was told by my Scottish friends I was meeting to watch the England-Croatia match to under no circumstances wear my England shirt to the Edinburgh pub. And enough to have the pub erupt in cheering every time Croatia scored.
      So the clubs may want to join the Premiership for reasons Neil stated. But the fans? I’m still not so sure.
      For me personally, it would be nice because I could actually watch Celtic play as matches would be televised in the US. Streaming video with Arabic commentary isn’t ideal.

  10. October 12, 2009 10:43 am

    Top article George, nice one. Here’s my tuppence worth.

    How, in any way whatsoever, would Celtic and Rangers competing south of the border benefit the English leagues; Prem, Championship or whatever division they were parachuted into? Sure, teams like Leeds, Millwall, Burnley, Stoke and any number of others with a fan base not averse to getting stuck in would love the fixtures, you can imagine the scenario can’t you? Way too much Tennants Extra and off it goes. In 2008 Rangers played the UEFA cup final in Manchester and trashed the place, as much to do with McEwans lager as any plasma screen failures!

    A bad idea, fatally flawed, forget!

    Instead, address the problem closer to home and make Celtic and Rangers part of a solution, allowing them to play in England would simply hasten the ruin of Scottish football. Notwithstanding some of the smaller teams in Scotland no doubt welcome visits from the Old Firm sides, their well behaved, or otherwised, travelling support guarantees a welcome boost in gate receipts.

    If they had any commonsense SFA would veto the suggestion now and for good.

    • Neil permalink
      October 12, 2009 11:10 am

      The benefit to the English League structure would be the creation of wider appeal. Celtic in particular and Rangers to a lesser extent already have some global appeal. The PL monster wants to grow and these two teams would help them do so.

  11. maserati4200 permalink
    October 12, 2009 11:00 am

    Surely, the only way the other Scottish clubs are going to be able to compete with the Old Firm is by way of improving the quality of their squads. This requires money for transfer fees and players’ salaries and benefits etc.

    This might seem a bit radical but, the SPL could impose a levy on Celtic and Rangers specifically to subsidise the other clubs’ playing budgets. This could be a medium term measure – a kind of “seed capital” arrangement and possibly topped up by the SPL.

  12. October 12, 2009 11:46 am

    Personally I think Celtic and Rangers would be a worthy addition to the Premiership but cannot see a “fair” way for it to happen. The only way is for them to start at the bottom and play their way up.

    I think the SPL needs to look at the way they manage things but unfortunately I can’t see that happening soon, as for them it’s a “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” situation.

    Maybe some foreign investment for the likes of Kilmarnock etc but then that it also not very likely.

    Good article by the way George!

  13. Matthew permalink
    October 12, 2009 2:09 pm


    english bashing? not so much. there is a WHOLE lot more i could go into if i was english bashing. was merely putting your comment into perspective.

    i never said that the derby isn’t rooted (some would say mired) in history, and yes, it has socio-political ties with ireland, but my point was that its not based on religion, but other contributing factors.

    the derby has a worldwide appeal, because, as a club with a support only outshone by the likes of UTD (who i also support), real and barcelona. a worldwide fanbase, so a worldwide interest in the derby.

    ireland has its ties with the game as a result of the clubs’ founding fathers being irish immigrants, mainly forced out of their own country by an oppressive english regeime, and thus a rivalry grew, from the outside based on religion, but with actual underlying issues nothing to do with religious beliefs.

    on another point, kevin, please do not lump celtic supporters in with the travelling rangers fans.
    they smashed up manchester in their uefa cup final. in ours, upwards of 80-90,000 fans descended on seville without even a stirring of trouble. we have commendations and awards from both the city of seville and the governing body, uefa. celtic fans are loved the world over. very different to the reputation of rangers fans.

    rob, you mention the old firm are glasgow clubs. glasgow is in scotland. old firm should stay in scotland?

    tell me, where are cardiff and swansea?
    and what league do they play in?
    and why is this? too big for their own league?

    i have to agree with neil in most of his points. i agree that there is this notion that all scots hate england. being irish, we have a rather different take on that, but as regards the football team, the issue is a different one. most irish fans support an english team and so won’t have the animosity toward the english national team.

    that is, apart from, and what i think is the cause of the animosity in all the rest of the home nations, the whole media circus and obnoxiousness within it. england won the world cup 43 years ago, and you will not stop going on about it. there’s the total over-hype and blind optimism before every major tournament, when it’s going to be england’s cup. this despite the fact that the team, until capello, has been mediocre at best, and always outperformed by competing nations. i think that is at the heart of why scottish fans would cheer on croatia, because if they get there, and they win it, we’ll never hear the bleedin’ end of it! ever!

    • Matthew permalink
      October 12, 2009 2:17 pm

      oh, and neil, as regards the sectarianism issue, i may be wrong, and i don’t live in scotland to have any first hand knowledge of it, but from what i can see that aspect of the game or the support has decreased significantly.

      it seems to me now to be more a cosmetic aspect, if you can see my meaning, in that fans will drink and sing and taunt each other, but from what i could see there is very little trouble at a game….though the streets of the north of ireland are a seperate entity and should be seen as such.

      i mean, my uncle and his mate were left by a taxi driver at the wrong end of ibrox before one old firm game recently.
      both with celtic shirts and no jackets. needless to say they got a right slaggin, but there was no threat of physical violence. they did however make a beeline for nearest cop on a horse….

      most people here in ireland have moved on from that sectarianism and bitterness. but, with a few drinks in, there is the inevitability of a few rebel songs and associated banter between fans, but i think most people now leave it behind when they leave the ground, as compared to the past when it would fester and grow outside.

      i’m in no way condoning the sectarian aspect that a minority ltach on to, but i do think, within the old firm, times have changed an awful lot.

      can’t say i have any knowledge re: the hearts hibs game mind you.

      but then….city rivalries will always have a stick to beat each other with.
      sectarianism is just one of those sticks.

      • Neil permalink
        October 12, 2009 2:36 pm

        Matthew, I agree that things have decreased significantly and it is only the idiotic minority who persist.

    • October 12, 2009 4:09 pm

      well the fact that cardiff and many other welsh clubs have played in the English league for about 100 years now sort of negates your point. This is about two established teams, who dominate their league, leaving and joining ours. Totally different. Its like talking about Berwick Rangers..where is Berwick Upon Tweed? But yes they play in Scotland

      i think the comments are escaping from the point, but we all know that this isnt the 80s and the troubles are about zero compared to those days. There is a whole generation now that doesnt know what its like to have your local shopping centre blown to pieces and see your friends maimed and lets hope it stays that way.

      all the best to all you SPL teams and supporters

      • Matthew permalink
        October 12, 2009 4:27 pm

        oh god i could get in to such a rant, but i think i will let sanity and sense prevail for once.

        but rob you do seem to be letting presonal grievances and opinions cloud the logic here. both parties, the old firm and the premier league would benefit. that is a fact. the spl could actually flourish, with more scottish youngsters able to develop and play for actual honours, and clubs like hibs, hearts, dundee utd and motherwell growing as a result.

        i think, personally, that it will happen at some stage. football as a whole will get s big shake up in not too distant future. i find it hard to see that the game can sustain itself going as it is. something will give, times they will change.

  14. October 12, 2009 2:25 pm

    Maybe the SPL should steal some ideas from the EPL like the 39th game idea. We all know (I hope we all do!) the SPL has some weird playoff format at the end of the season that runs for a few games, where the top half of the table play with each other over again, and so do the ones at the bottom. Instead of play these by lottery home or away, have these games played at a neutral venue. Ideally start it in Africa or a place that is a former British colony, chances are, there are more than a few who know about the SPL. Then maybe they can also scout some future Drogbas or Essiens while they’re at it.

  15. maserati4200 permalink
    October 12, 2009 2:50 pm

    This is a cracking thread.

    At least it shows that there is a serious debate to be had about the future of the SPL and, by implication, the future of the EPL.

    We could factor in the; “only four or five clubs compete for the EPL” argument.

    Do we have a similar situation in England, i.e. a minority of clubs achieving success year in, year out, and the rest are scrapping for lesser prizes and/or survival?

    • Matthew permalink
      October 12, 2009 2:54 pm

      Yes maserati, england has a similar situation, though not quite as bad. united have won the title 11 times out of the last 17 premier league seasons. and only 3 other teams have won the top prize….

      spain, france, portugal and italy also have this ‘problem’. all leagues have a small group of clubs that will dominate. the cream rise to the top. in all those leagues, bar maybe france and portugal, the cream have risen to the top and have nowhere else to go.

      celtic and rangers would seem to have that option of somewhere else to go and compete, as would the portugese clubs.

  16. maserati4200 permalink
    October 12, 2009 3:02 pm

    Despite my earlier posts, maybe the solution is for a proper European Super League with teams drawn from; England, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Germany, France, Glasgow, Holland, etc

    The bottom two clubs are relegated and replaced by the Champions and Runners-Up of the respective national leagues.

    • Neil permalink
      October 12, 2009 3:08 pm

      Love it Maserati, Absolutely love it. Is that the Glasgow Sunday league?

      • maserati4200 permalink
        October 12, 2009 3:12 pm


        I’ll be Dick Van Nostrilbooy and you can be Giggly Buffon Hairdo!

    • October 12, 2009 4:24 pm

      you just stole my thunder for my next article!! :-)

  17. George permalink
    October 12, 2009 6:19 pm

    Great discussion guys. Thanks for reading!

  18. October 12, 2009 6:27 pm

    It’s not always the best scenario, but I love how football has its roots ingrained in so many other things like religion and politics. And yes it can get sensitive at times, but that’s what makes every fan of each club so different!

    sorry history geek going off inside of me!

  19. October 12, 2009 6:49 pm

    I offer you my unreserved apology. Celtic fans, time and time again, have been praised for their behaviour overseas, even those travelling to major games without tickets.

    However, in the late seventies, possibly 77/78?, the tartan army came to London for the showpiece of the old Home International series and what began as party central for ginger wigged Scotsmen in red and green skirts with no pants quickly degenerated after England lost. The upshot of all this mayhem was the visiting hordes laid waste to the old Wembley, helping themselves to half the pitch and a couple of cross-bars. There might have been one or two green and white hooped shirts in amongst the “celebrating” victors.

    I stand by what I said about the potential for violence, there is an old enmity between the English and Scots, add to that the tribal element of football support and you have a recipe for cancelling all police leave and boarding up shop windows in city centres.

    I’m not at all convinced allowing the Old Firm teams to ply their trade south of the border is a good idea at all. Fair enough, the Scottish Premier League has two dominant teams with the occasional gate crasher, so too though, do most of the major European leagues, the only difference is Spain, Germany, Italy etc probably have a choice of four potential championship winners each season.

    I think in the end, Celtic and Rangers will leapfrog the English Premiership and become founding members, at whatever level, of the European Super League Rob Blanchette has just opened up the floor to debate on.

    • Matthew permalink
      October 12, 2009 7:58 pm

      apology accepted! but seriously? goin back to the late 70’s for an instance of scottish hooliganism??
      holligans trashing wembley?

      you have to be jokin. with the past performances of english fans both at home and abroad??
      hows about when english fans tore up lansdowne road in dublin so a game in which england were losing could be abandoned? hows about….well come on hows about every major tournament?! hows about millwall west ham this season?

      im sorry, apology was great but i just could not believe what i read. harking back to 70’s, and one or two hooped shirts?! have to be havn a laugh!!

      • October 12, 2009 8:40 pm

        Matthew…i think Kevin is just trying to highlight the point about the problem between the Scots and English. The potential for trouble is still great. Yes, Celtic have had big slaps on the back in recent years for their support. However, very recently i remember at Old Trafford in the last CL game we played with you many Celtic fans getting into the United end, and then kicking off after they started getting battered on the pitch..that is a fact, as Rafa would say.

        Too many mentals on both sides of the border..thats why England V Scotland internationals do not happen anymore. It would be carnage sooner or later.

  20. October 12, 2009 8:49 pm

    Hi Matthew,

    That’s the great thing about WDKF, it ain’t 606 and like-minded people can disagree without resorting to puerile insults. Don’t forget of course the basic premise of this site is football related humour, maybe the example I chose rankled a little, it seems to have done. My point remains valid though, I think Scottish football fans, who have always behaved in exemplary fashion abroad following the national team, making many new friends along the way, would always be a target for the numerous unruly elements in English football and would take great delight in random vandalism.

    The example I illustrated, rightly or wrongly, was a deciding factor in the Home International tournament being abandoned. This is a crying shame because it could have become a footballing five nations, with the Republic taking part too. Quite correctly you highlight Ireland-England being disrupted by the morons who purport to be English fans, frankly, whoever was ahead at the time, this was pre-planned violence and the match was always high risk.

    Whatever our polemics, back to the original theme; the question shouldn’t be how to avoid English inspired acts of hooliganism but how to improve the quality of the Scottish league system and by association the fortunes of the national team. Rangers and Celtic playing down south won’t achieve this in my humble opinion.

  21. Paul McCombie permalink
    October 13, 2009 12:51 pm

    Really, the solution is simple: split the gate receipts 50/50. I know many other likeminded Celtic fans that see the socialist (dare I say it) aspect of the game as having been driven out to the overall detriment of it (the game). We make far too much money to allow the others to compete – splitting the money wouldn’t increase their wealth dramatically; it would substantially decrease ours though thus providing a much needed boost to our insolvent brethren across the breadth country.

    It’s also interesting to investigate the overall motives as to why we would want to move to the EPL: to get more money to compete in the Champions League? I don’t for one second believe that, given that we’d likely not be allowed to compete via the EPL (or any other English competition). So the question remains: why bother?

    Well, for starters, we’d have all this extra cash with which to compete for the EPL trophy; we’d have ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal et al every season and erm, that’s about it. Oh, we’d also get more snazzy SKY TV coverage, ooh.

    We’d have absolutely no guarantee at all that we’d even manage a Europa spot (when does the EPL prize money get handed out? -how would we come close to competing from the beginning? -would we be relegation fodder at the end of the first year?)

    So we swap SPL trophies and annual tilts at Porto, Benfica, Juve, ManU, Barcelona, Milan, etc for EPL anonymity and no European football?

    Still, at least we’d have more cash and three games at home to Chelsea, ManU and Arsenal :-(

  22. November 18, 2009 12:53 am

    Actually, East Stirlingshire came within 2 games of promotion and their worst defeat of the season was 4-0! Get the facts right before you talk nonsense.

  23. November 18, 2009 12:21 pm

    Did the author come up with this while down the pub? The bits about Hearts and East Stirlingshire are miles out. As is the ‘best league in the planet’ line tagged onto the Premier League. If you can’t be bothered paying Scottish football enough attention to write about it properly (and I couldn’t fault you for ignoring it) then don’t bother.

    • Shallowgirl permalink
      November 19, 2009 1:47 pm

      I think the phrase was “often dubbed the best league on the planet”, therefore I would suggest not a personal opinion!

    • November 19, 2009 2:18 pm

      well if its not the prem then its la liga. so whatever, its not far from being the best..agreed?

  24. Chris permalink
    November 18, 2009 12:40 pm

    The author of this is a clearly misguided individual who is under the illusion he has knowledge of the topic he is discussing.

    East Stirling were losing 7/8/9-0 on a regular basis last season, were they? Is this the same East Stirling who finished in the playoffs, and came within 2 games of promotion? The fact that you think that is ‘very likely’ that Hearts will finish third just sums you up

    What a shoddy, poorly researched and badly written piece.

  25. Roly permalink
    November 18, 2009 1:23 pm

    Cleary the author of this doesn’t have a clue about Scottish football… He thinks Hearts are going to finish third!!!!! MEGALOLZ!!!!!!!

  26. maserati4200 permalink
    November 18, 2009 5:32 pm

    Scottish football is truly insignificant.

    The national team is sh*te; the SPL is sh*te; the lower leagues are the equivalent of pub football (and I’ve witnessed it, first-hand, by the way).

    Oh, and no one of any calibre wants to manage a Scottish team.

    No wonder Celtic and Rangers are desperate to join the EPL.

  27. November 18, 2009 6:00 pm

    I’ve checked out all the feedback on

    I guess some attention is better than no attention and you can’t please anyone.

    WDKF is always looking for new authors with different opinions so please feel free to contact us if you want to put up an article of your own.

    We’re bloggers- we’re unpaid, we come from all over the globe so ideas and opinions are relative.


    • November 19, 2009 2:27 pm

      I’d add something but it’s all very ‘shiny shiny sparkly sparkly Premier League and Serie A look isn’t it great because it’s on TV’ football, which is about the other end of the universe from the football I watch of a weekend (

      Nice bit about the WAG’s tho. I’ll come back for more of that. :)

  28. shaun the brummie permalink
    May 26, 2010 11:08 pm jocks have got devolution,you want seperation from england,so you think you can cherry pick what you,d like.well think again,we english dont want any drunken thuggish scots football hooligans rampaging around english towns and cities.we have enough of our own,they’re english thugs septic and rankers can stay in the s.p.l.,where they can stagnate,wither,and die.and your national team can dream of getting into a tournament.L.O.L.


  1. Premier League Ownership: Foreign Hands in English Pies? « WDKF | Qualified Football Arm Chair Managers Slash Pundits

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